Leslie: Yes, but you see that dialogical has only formed in the last decade. So you see, that's my point, that now, in the last decade, Gestalt has really moved into its dialogical phase.
Leslie: 是的，不过你得知道“对话”是最近十年在完形流派圈子中形成的。在我看来，最近十年，完形治疗才进入对话阶段。
Phil: Would you say that that's been because there's been such cross-fertilization with Rogers?
Phil: 你认为这是由于Rogers与完形治疗的相互影响造成的吗？
Leslie: No. I think it's been because of cross-fertilization with Kohut and Stolorow. Lynn Jacobs has been very important, and Gary Yontef. And then, the influence of Kohut. I mean, the Gestalt therapists started reading Kohut in the '80s, and started picking up the notion of...I mean empathy was a dirty word to Fritz, and when I talked about empathy in the 70's in Gestalt it was regarded as bullshit. And so the modern Gestalt therapy is dialogical, but the Gestalt therapy that I grew up in was not.
Leslie: 不。我认为是由于Kohut 和Stolorow的影响。Lynn Jacobs和Gary Yontef也起了重要作用。完形治疗师80年代开始读Kohut，开始接纳共情的概念……Fritz对共情不屑一顾，70年代我在完形学院谈起共情被认为一派胡言。现在的完形治疗是对话式的了，但我当年学习时它还不是。
Phil: Well, that's helpful for me to know, but you're saying that Kohut is the link?
Phil: 哦，这帮我了解了你所说的，你是说Kohut是关键？
Leslie: Yes, and Stolorow also, because he's in L.A. I think Stolorow's had a strong influence on Lynn Jacobs. You see I met Lynn in the 80's and this was like a soul mate in Gestalt therapy, and I had read her dissertation. And with this I agreed, but this had not been put out as Gestalt therapy in the way that I had been trained in it, or learned it, or been exposed to it. I went out to Cooper Island after Fritz had died, and somebody was running that, and it was very sort of radical independence. We arrived by ferry on this island and stood around for an hour, and there was a truck off to the side and there was somebody sitting in the truck, and eventually, after an hour, we went up to this person and said, "Can you tell us the way to the Gestalt Institute?" And he was there to pick us up!
Leslie: 对，Stolorow也是，因为他在洛杉矶。我想Stolorow对Lynn Jacobs有很深的影响，我在80年代遇到Lynn，就像遇到完形治疗中灵魂上的伴侣，我当时已经读过她的论文。我赞成她的观点，但我当初在完形治疗中所受训练、所学、所遇不同于此。Fritz死后我去了库柏岛，那里有人主事，近似于某种彻底独立观点。我们乘船到岛上，站了1小时，旁边有辆卡车，有人坐在车里；最后过了1小时，我们走过去问那个人：“去完形学院怎么走？”才发现他是来接我们的！
Both: (laughter)
两人:（笑）。
Leslie: He'd been waiting for us to ask him. Now, that was radical independence.
Leslie: 他一直等着我们问他。这就是彻底独立。
Phil: Well, that certainly gets the idea across.
Phil:很形象。
Leslie: Yes. So, process-experiential is an attempt to integrate these different approaches.
Leslie: 所以历程－体验是整合这些理论的一种尝试。
Phil: Well, that clarifies the term "experiential," and you seemed to be talking at the Gestalt writer's conference about that, but what would you say is Gestalt? What is specifically Gestalt, today?
Phil: 你已经说清楚了“体验”，你在完形作家会议上也说到了，那么今天你认为完形是什么？具体是什么？
Leslie:Firstly,I'mdisconnectednowfromtheinstitutecircuit,andI'vejustbeendoingmythinginacademia,butIwouldseethatGestalt'sfieldtheoryisanimportantmeta-theoreticalprinciplethatdefinesit.AndIactuallyseeactiveexperim
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