Phil: In what way?
Phil:通过什么途径？
Leslie: Well, I think what Rogers did, that Perls never did, was Rogers' attempt to be a systematic theorizer, and that made the theory open to both testing and refutation. I think Gestalt never had a systematic theory, and that's one of its problems. I think trying to develop systematic theory leads to potential advances, even if only in the refutation of the theory. So I think having a more explicit theory, rather than an intuitive theory, is very important.
Leslie: Well, I teach at York University in Toronto, and I'm developing a sort of integrative, what I feel is an integrative package of Gestalt and Client-Centered therapy, and I see the two as merging more and more. I see a growing interest in empathy in Gestalt therapy, and in part of what's Client-Centered therapy there is an experiential therapy which I feel is quite similar to Gestalt, so I've trained in both approaches. I've always had some sort of view that they're quite compatible. I'm currently working on that - an attempt to empirically validate the experiential therapies so that they become legitimate again in academic circles. I've recently completed a study of Gestalt and Client-Centered combination on a depressed population, a clinically depressed population, and demonstrated that these processes are as effective as cognitive behavioral therapy or interpersonal therapy.
Leslie: Rogers已经做了，而Perls没有，Rogers尝试建立理论体系，这使得他的理论可以检测也可以证伪。完形治疗从来没有系统的理论，这是它的问题之一。我相信建立系统理论、哪怕单是对理论进行反驳都可以引至潜在的进步。所以我认为有更明确的理论而非仅有直觉性理念，这很重要。
Leslie: 我在多伦多的约克大学任教，正在发展一种综合的治疗，我认为是完形与人本治疗的整合，我看到这两种疗法在不断地融合。我受过两种治疗的训练，看到完形治疗中的共情在不断发展，人本治疗中的体验治疗部分也与完形治疗相似。我一直觉得它们可以相容。我正在试着验证体验治疗，以便让它为学术理论界认可。我最近完成了一项对临床抑郁者的研究，证实完形治疗与人本治疗的合并使用跟认知行为治疗或人际治疗一样有效。
Phil: Do you find other people picking up this line of interest and also pursuing the empirical validation of the experiential approach?
Phil:有其他人有跟你类似的兴趣、在验证体验疗法吗？
Leslie: No, but I'm trying to generate a group of people doing it. I'm working with someone at the University of Toledo in Ohio, Robert Elliott, and he's doing this as well. Then I have a colleague who's an ex-student, Sandra Pavio, and prior to doing the depression study, I had done another study funded by the Canadian Social Science Council on the treatment of unfinished business. We actually advertised for treatment of unfinished business, and in it we got a number of people who had been abused, and Sandra Paivio now is carrying out an empirically-based treatment of what she calls "childhood maltreatment," and she's attempting to replicate our unfinished business study findings. The predominant emphasis is on unfinished business, empty-chair dialogue, within an empathic, relational context.
Clearly, my form of Gestalt has emphasized the actual experimental, the use of Gestalt experimentation, and the standard, what I came to define as two-chair and empty-chair dialogues, because these are easily empirically studied. So, I've come to emphasize those although my own practice extends beyond that, but in terms of empirical work I've focused on these processes.
Leslie: 没有，我正在尝试召集一些人来做这件事。我在跟美国Ohio的Toledo大学的Robert Elliott合作。还有一位同事Sandra Pavio，是个交换学生；在抑郁者研究之前我还做过治疗有未完成心结者的研究，是由加拿大社会科学委员会资助的。我们为之做了广告征集志愿被试，找到了不少受过虐待的人。现在Sandra Paivio在做有实证验证基础的治疗，她称之为“童年受虐”，她想复制我们在未完成心结研究中的发现。强调的重点是共情关系情境下的未完成和空椅对话。
我的形式的完形治疗强调积极实验、用完形治疗法中的积极实验技术。这些积极实验法的标准就是我定义的双椅和空椅对话，这些技术用实证研究来验证是很容易做的。尽管我的具体应用的技术远多于双椅和空椅技术，但我的研究集中在这些技术。
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