Phil: So, you came to Canada, and was it your wife's involvement in psychology? I mean, where was the switch?
Phil:那么，你来加拿大，是由于你妻子潜心心理学吗？我是说转折点在哪里？
Leslie: It was really the loss of the political cause in South Africa. I was searching for something more relevant. We identified with the American situation as soon as we came here, and there were a lot of American draft dodgers, and we could sort of identify a lot more with the political strife going on in the States around Viet Nam - the counter-cultural revolution. The problem was that I did very well in school in engineering, in mathematics, and physics and so on, and so I was always being lead by my achievements, but those were in conflict with my interests. I'd had this crisis earlier in South Africa, in that I didn't really like engineering but I threw myself into politics and I was quite active in student leadership and working with people, so finally when I came here, having now left behind my family and the social context, I felt more free to just break out and do whatever I wanted. My wife was doing psychology and then I met a number of people who were students in psychology, and I just got to learn more about it.
In South Africa becoming a psychologist, in my eyes anyhow, wasn't really a viable thing to do. It wasn't a profession or anything like that. When I came here, it looked more viable. And I hadn't ever wanted to be a medical doctor, but that was the thing. All the jazz musician friends of mine ended up as psychiatrists; they all got MD's, and they dropped out of medical school and they came back, and they ended up as psychiatrists. One is now in London and one is in Australia. But I never wanted to do medicine, so when I came here, psychology seemed viable; everyone was wanting to do psychology and so I made the shift there, sort of influenced by exposure to what my wife was doing, our friends...
It's a very interesting story. I had decided to drop out and go to India for a year, and my wife, we were both going to go. That was sort of a done thing then, with the Beatles, I think.
Leslie: 是南非的政治原因造成的损失。我在寻找一些更相关的事情。我们一到这儿就觉得跟美国情形相似，有很多美国式的花招诡计，我们更倾向于美国的反对越战争、反文化的大革命。我的问题是我在学校里极其擅长工程、数学、物理等等，这些成就让我放不下，可是又跟我的兴趣不合。之前在南非我就有这个冲突，我并不喜欢工程，投入了政治、对领导学生和与人合作十分积极，所以最后当我来到这儿，远离家庭和社会环境，我觉得要突破限制做任何我想做的事都更为自由。我妻子在学心理学，而后我认识了很多心理学的学生，想对此学习更多。
在我看来，要在南非做心理学家不太可行。那不是一项职业。到这儿这后，似乎做心理学家的可能性大了。我从没想过做医生。我所有的爵士乐师朋友最后都做了精神病医师，他们都有硕士学位，从医学院退学后来又回去，最终成为精神病学家。所以我到这儿后，做心理学家成为可能。周围每个人都想从事心理学，我转了行，可以说部分受我妻子和朋友所从事行业的影响……
这是很有趣的故事。我曾经决定要放弃，跟妻子一起去印度一年。我想，那真是某种注定不行的决定，跟甲壳虫乐队一样。
Phil: Right, right. Was that the connection, the reason to go to India?
Phil:是啊。那种联结是去印度的原因吗？
Leslie: Well, it was just sort of one of the things that people were doing at that time. It was sort of seeking the spiritual, I think; I don't know if the Beatles had gone yet, it wasn't a specific thing, but that was one of the things to do.
So, it was in August and a friend of mine, a colleague of mine said he was coming up to York University in Toronto. I was outside of Toronto at another engineering university, and he was coming up to York to use the computer. I had heard that there was a woman here, whose name was Laura Rice, and that she was a student of Carl Rogers. And she believed that curiosity was important, and that people in therapy were motivated by curiosity to explore themselves. I don't know if you know this, but a lot of behaviorists had come from South Africa, people like Lazarus and Wolpe and a lot of behavioral therapists, and so the University of South Africa where my wife trained was highly behavioral, and I had read a fair bit on my own, and I thought behaviorism was silly, and...
Leslie: 这只是那时人们所做的事情之一。我想，是寻找精神寄托。我那时不知道甲壳虫乐队已经不在了，其实没什么特别的，只是那时做的事情之一。
到8月份我一个朋友和同事说他要去多伦多的约克大学。我在多伦多以外的另一所工程院校，他则要去约克大学。我听说那儿有位Laura Rice女士，Carl Rogers的学生，她认为好奇心十分重要，治疗中应激发起来访者探索自我的好奇。我不知道你是否清楚，许多行为主义者像Lazarus、Wolpe等从南非过来，我妻子在南非读过的大学是高度的行为主义化，我自己也读了很多，我觉得行为主义很愚蠢……
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