Leslie: Firstly, I'm disconnected now from the institute circuit, and I've just been doing my thing in academia, but I would see that Gestalt's field theory is an important meta-theoretical principle that defines it. And I actually see active experimentation and dialogue as the two components that make it Gestalt therapy. Client-Centered is lacking the active experimentation, having only empathy. And I'm trying to integrate the two, so I see Gestalt as having now both a dialogical and an experimental component and that's what makes it unique. I think its view of people working at the boundary to solve problems and satisfy needs is a unique perspective on human functioning.
Leslie:首先，我已经从完形学院出来了，我只不过在学术界做自己的事，不过我会认为完形的场域理论是界定完形的理论基础。我看到积极实验法和对话是完形治疗的两个主要成分。人本治疗缺少缺乏积极实验法，只有共情。我想整合这两者，我觉得完形治疗现在有对话也有积极实验法成分，这正是它的独特之处。我想它的人们在人际边界上解决问题、满足需求的人性观是对人类机能的一种独到之见。
Phil: I'm curious. I don't hear you bringing in the phenomenological, which to me is constructivist, a making meaning out of one's experience.
Phil: 我比较好奇，你没有提及现象学，它对我意味着从体验中建构意义。
Leslie: Yes, but that's because I see that as baseline. I see that as common to Client-Centered and to Gestalt. It's clearly a phenomenological therapy, but there are other phenomenological therapies. I think phenomenology is at its core. That's the experience, but what makes Gestalt different and unique from the other experiential therapies is the use of active experimentation, plus dialogue, and it's view of people at the boundary solving problems.
Leslie:我是没有说到现象学。因为我把它看作基础，它是人本治疗和完形治疗所共有的。完形是现象学治疗，此外也还有其他的现象学疗法。现象学在完型疗法的核心, 这就是说体验是核心, 但使得完形治疗有别于其他现象学疗法的是积极实验法的应用，加上对话，和人们在边界上解决问题的观点。
Phil: Hm. We talked a little of this previously, but one of the criticisms I hear of Gestalt is that it doesn't have a developmental theory, a theory of self. Do you see that as a viable criticism?
Phil: 哦，我们之前谈了一点这个。我听到的对完形治疗的批评之一是它没有心理发展理论, 没有自我理论，你觉得这样的批评站得住脚吗？
Leslie: I am not impressed with the criticism that it doesn't have a developmental theory.. I mean, it doesn't, but I don't think psychotherapies really can adequately have developmental theories; I think they should be theories of functioning and theories of practice, not theories of development. I think that's a paper game.
Leslie:我对没有发展理论的批评不太在意。我是说我不认为心理治疗可以有完整的发展理论，心理治疗应当有功能理论、实践理论，但不是发展理论。这是文字游戏。
Phil: (laughter)
Phil: (笑)
Leslie: I think there's a whole discipline of developmental psychology, whose business it is to study development, and we can use that to inform psychotherapy, but because psychoanalysts happened to invent developmental things from listening to people I don't think that's a necessity. Clearly, that's a common criticism of Gestalt, but I don't think people sitting around doing psychotherapy can make developmental theories that are worth anything. Now, this issue of a self I think is different. I think having a more adequate self theory is important.
Leslie:在我看来发展心理学是研究人类发展的一门完整的学科，可以把它的研究成果用到心理治疗中来，但仅凭精神分析师从病人那儿偶然听到的东西来创立发展观，我觉得没这个必要。缺少发展观是对完形治疗的常见的批评，不过我不认为心理治疗师可以创建有价值的发展理论。但说到自我就不同了，我想有更为适合的自我理论是非常重要的。
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