An Interview with Sue Johnson, EdD心理学空间

So one person numbs out. And the more he numbs out, shuts down, shuts his partner out, the more his partner gets angry and pushes.

So one person numbs out. And the more he numbs out, shuts down, shuts his partner out, the more his partner gets angry and pushes. And that is the most classic dance of relationship distress in North America. It's a hot number. We all do it a lot.VY:This is what you refer to as a cycle?SJ:That's a cycle. And inHold Me Tight, which is the book I wrote for the public a couple of years ago, it's one of the main "demon dialogues." What's important is if you understand that that drama is not about communication skills or your personalities, or that you're deficient somehow, but rather that drama is about both of you being caught in feeling disconnected from each other and not knowing how to handle it—if you understand that, what we first teach people to do in EFT is to basically understand they're scaring the hell out of each other. Then we teach them how to step out of the negative patterns, and then deliberately learn how to reach for each other—which is what mothers and infants and bonded partners and people who love each other in positive relationships naturally do—learn how to reach for each other and create loving, responsive, open emotional communication where they can get their needs met.VY:Sounds nice.SJ:It is nice. It's fun to do, as well. As a therapist, it makes you feel like you're actually really doing what you wanted to do in grad school when you decided to be a therapist.VY:So how do therapists do that? The first thing, I guess, is to start to be able to identify, in your own mind, this dance—this cycle.SJ:Yeah. At this point, we've been doing EFT for 25 years. We've set it out pretty clearly and we've even done research on what you have to do to make this work. First of all, you've got to create safety in the session.VY:Okay, safety is number one. So how do you do that?SJ:You do that by being empathic and by being emotionally present. Really, this is aRogerian therapy. So you do that in the traditional Rogerian way, but I think it's more intense than Rogers really created because you also help the couple understand the drama that they're caught in. So you're a relationship consultant. You follow the couple's drama. You make it clear to them the steps they're doing in the dance.VY:That's "Rogers plus," because you're not just reflecting back—you're starting to explain to them what you see that they're doing.SJ:I think you have to do more than explain. You have to give them a felt sense.

You have to catch it as it's happening, and you have to help them see the dance they're caught in and how it leaves them both alone and hurting.

You have to catch it as it's happening, and you have to help them see the dance they're caught in and how it leaves them both alone and hurting. You also have to help them see that underneath this dance they're both in pain, and that this pain is just built into us. It's part of who are as human beings. So that is key. You have to create safety in the session. You have to help people explore their emotions so that they can talk about some of these softer feelings.

If you're always telling me that you don't want to hear me because I'm so angry, after a while all I show you is anger. And all I see you do is be cold and indifferent. And what we help people do is talk about the softer feelings that they don't even know how to name sometimes, and certainly don't know how to share. So the reactively angry partner will start talking about how "I feel lonely. I don't know what to do. I do get angry. I do get critical because underneath I'm so scared I don't matter to him."

And we will help her not only access that and work with those feelings, regulate them differently, integrate them so she can talk about those softer feelings—we'll help her turn and share with her partner in interactions where we scaffold the safety in. We help her share that, and we help her partner hear it—because one of the reasons you need a therapist is that sometimes you do give these clear emotional messages to your partner, and because of the negative music playing in the relationship, your partner doesn't even hear it. Your partner doesn't trust, doesn't respond to it.VY:When you say you help them share these feelings with their partner—this is what you refer to as enactments,á la Minuchin, right?SJ:Yes, although they're much more emotional than Minuchin's enactments usually were. To really summarize it, the EFT therapist creates safety, deepens people's emotions using the attachment frame, to the soft feelings, the fears, the sadnesses, the hurts, sometimes even the shame underneath their reactive responses to each other, and then helps them send clear signals to their partner in very powerful interactions about their fears and their needs. Really, we teach people to help each other deal with these difficult emotions in a way that brings them closer.VY:So if all goes well, you identify their pattern, you help them feel safe, you observe their pattern, you help them identify it, and then you help them start to express their deepest, vulnerable, unmet needs with each other. Then what happens?SJ:It's basically the prototypical corrective emotional experience. And the reason it's so powerful is that we have these key change events in the second stage of EFT. In the first stage, we de-escalate the negative patterns so that people can stop and say things like, "Hey, we're caught in that thing again—that thing where I get angrier and angrier and you get more and more silent. This is the place where we both get hurt." And they start seeing the dance is the problem.

So they can have control over the negative interaction pattern, but that's not enough. I think lots of couples therapies get people there one way or another. The important bit for me is the second stage, where we actively use an attachment frame to help people to distill their attachment fears and their attachment needs, which in the beginning of therapy they are often not even aware of. And then we help them share that.

When that happens and the other person can respond,