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JAY HALEY INTERVIEWED BY MAYA PINES PSYCHOLOGY TODAY NOVEMBER 1982心理学空间

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JAYHALEYINTERVIEWEDBYMAYAPINESPSYCHOLOGYTODAYNOVEMBER1982TherapistJayHaleytalksaboutdisturbedpowerrelationshipsinmodernfamilies JayHaleyisoneofthenation’sleadingfamilytherapists—aquintessentiallypragmaticmanwithacleareyeandsardonicwitwhoteacheshisstudentshowtomakeailingfamiliesfunctionagain Mostly,inhisview,thisinvolvesstraighteningoutmixed-upfamilyhierarchies—likethe"perversetriangles"thatf

Haley: Well, the culture is gettingmuch more conservative. That tends tomake the familymore hierarchical, more structured. There was a time, in the ‘60s, whenpeople make the mistake of taking the totally unexpressiveway one behaves in therapy andtranslating it intohow to raise a kid. Parents tried, but it can’t be done. It made for somevery strange problems. I remember a psychiatrist who hada 7-year-old boy, and when he threw aparty the kid wouldcome downstairs and drink out of the bottle. The psychiatrist was terriblyembarrassed, but he wouldn’t tell him not to, becauseyou don’t tell a kid not to do something.So there was thatquality around for a while. That’s one of the reasons I hesitate to say thatanything you do in therapy can be applied to normal life.

Pines: How much has the women’smovement changed the hierarchy in families?

Haley: It’s moved women to moreequality with their husbands. But it’s aproblem in somemarriage, because it’s awkward to have two equals in charge of a group—likehaving two Presidents. So they have to divide it up insome way: One takes foreignpolicy, and the othertakes domestic policy. Yet if you get into a real ethnic, Italianneighborhood, or among alder people, or working-classcouples, you can’t use that model, because thehusband stillhas more power.

Pines: On the whole, is yourview of the American family very grim?

Haley: No. Grim in what way?

Pines: Oh, so many strugglesover power, so many ways for the family to gowrong.

Haley: No. The main problemsof the Americanfamily seem to have come from affluence,at untilvery recently. Long ago, families used tohangtogether because they had to. The wife stayed with her husbandeven if hetreated her badly, because they had to be supported. And a woman who didn’t get married had tofind a family to live with. And kids stayed with theirparents even when they didn’t wantto, because theycouldn’t afford to move out.

Pines: Was that better, in youropinion?

Haley: No, not necessarily. Butit’s a big change when there’s enough moneyin the culturefor people to move out, and when there are enough jobsso that wives can go towork and kids of18 came go to work. It means that there’s no economic cement holding thefamily together anymore.

"Themain problems of the American familycane from affluence. There's noeconomiccement holding it together anymore."

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