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JAY HALEY INTERVIEWED BY MAYA PINES PSYCHOLOGY TODAY NOVEMBER 1982心理学空间

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JAYHALEYINTERVIEWEDBYMAYAPINESPSYCHOLOGYTODAYNOVEMBER1982TherapistJayHaleytalksaboutdisturbedpowerrelationshipsinmodernfamilies JayHaleyisoneofthenation’sleadingfamilytherapists—aquintessentiallypragmaticmanwithacleareyeandsardonicwitwhoteacheshisstudentshowtomakeailingfamiliesfunctionagain Mostly,inhisview,thisinvolvesstraighteningoutmixed-upfamilyhierarchies—likethe"perversetriangles"thatf

Haley: Yes. Suppose we see amother asking a child what she should do topunish him.In the ‘50s we’d have thought there was something wrongwith that woman’s thinking,that she wasasking the permission of her child to punish him. By the ‘60s we’d havefocused on the ways both she and her child were behaving,that they got caught up in thisstrange thing where shewas asking the child’s permission to punish him; and then we’d analyze thedouble bind. By the ‘70s we’d have assumed that a womanbehaves like that when she doesn’thavepower—when she doesn’t have the authority to tell the kid what to do becausethe kid has power from his father or grandmother, andtherefore the mother has to askthe kid’s

permission, because she doesn’t have authority of her own.If you think in alonger unit thantwo, you look to see who else is involved when a mother is actingpeculiarly, and usually you

see that somebody else is in coalition with the child againsther. At least,these are three different explanations of the same behavior. And I think the triangular oneis the most interesting on for therapists, because itgives them more opportunities. Youcan work with themother, the father, the kid, or the while situation.

"Feminismhas moved women to more equalitywith their husbands. But it's awkward tohave two equals in charge of a group--like having two Presidents."

Pines: But that’s more difficultthan working with just one person, isn’tit? I mean, ifyou problem is the result of your chemistry, presumablysome kind of pill canchange it If you’re

driven by your psyche, presumably some kind of individualpsychotherapy canchange it. Butif you’re driven by other people, then it’s even more difficult, becauseyouhave to change many differentpeople at once.

Haley: I wouldn’t think of itthat way. As I see it, the effect of pills isoften determinedby the social situation. And the individual psyche andwhat happens to it aredetermined by otherpeople. I don’t really you can change any individual psyche without changingother people. Which is really the family view—that theway you think and believe is aproduct of yoursituation and relationships, rather than that your relationships are aproduct of what you thinkand believe. In many ways, family therapy is easier thanothers because youmotivate a lot ofpeople to do something and a lot of things happen.

Pines: Do you still think interms of the double bind, in which peoplebecome ill becausethey receive conflicting messages from their mother orsomeone else in theirfamily?

Haley: Mo. That phrase has beenused in so many ways that I don’t even knowwhat it meansanymore.

Pines: Have you noticed any newpatterns, recently, in the kinds of problemsthat bringpeople to therapy?

Haley: I think that economicfactors are becoming very important. Now wetend to getkids who had left home coming back home as they lose theirjobs. And the familythat’s been

organized without them has to reorganize to have them backagain. The reallysad cases arethose of girls who get married to get away from their parents, and then themarriage breaks up and they have no place to go. So theycame home with a baby, into ahousehold where theydidn’t hike the parents or didn’t get along with them in the first place.Those are very sticky problems.

Pines: And what’s the solution?

Haley: Just to have the familyreorganize so as to share the labor, sharethe space andthe privacy, and decide who’s going to take care of what.

Pines: In general, do you findthat there is more authority and hierarchy infamilies nowthan there was 19 years ago?

Haley:Well,thecultureisgettingmuchmoreconservative.Thattendstomakethefamilymorehierarchical,morestructured.Therewasatime,inthe‘60s,whenpeoplemakethemistakeoftakingthetotallyunexpressivewayonebehavesintherapyandtranslatingitintohowtoraiseakid.Parentstried,butitcan’tbedone.Itm

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