Haley: Yes. People while do whatyou ask. That’s the art of directivetherapy. I mean, ifyou can get somebody to lie on his bacak and talk to theceiling, while apsychoanalyst sitsbehindhim, for seven or eightyears and pay money to do that, people will doanything!
Pines: Is there anything peoplecan do by themselves to improve their familylives, especiallywhen they have children?
Haley: It’s hard to generalize.My wife, Cloe Madanes, and Ihave beenthinking of writing a self-help book for families. Butit’s a real challenge. Because I think thatif a familyis havingdifficulty with a kid, they tend to think and do thethings that are part ofthe system that iscausing the difficulty. They have trouble getting out of the system bythemselves. If you getinto a struggle with your wife and everythingyou do is producing struggle,and you realize that,it doesn’t mean you can stop doing it. It’s when an outsider comes in withdifferent things to do that you have a chance to get out.
Pines: Wouldn’t it help to examineone’s own family hierarchy?
Haley: I don’t think so, no.Depends on what you’re trying to solve. You canexamineit—but I’m not sure you can do any thing about it. (?Jt.)
Pines: Suppose one figures outwho has the real power in the family. Can’tone deliberatelychange the balance?
Haley: You’d have to have a familymeeting and get some agreement on tryingto change it,and then in the process it might change. Sometimes what you can do is havethe family draw on the blackboard who’s in charge, andthen who next is in charge if thatperson is not home.And sometimes you can have them show the way it is in their family, and theway it ought to be. People can usually lay that out prettyclearly. Butchanging it issomething else. You’d have to have a very careful plan,and go at it indirectly. The structure offamilies tendsto be pretty firm.
Pines: Have you seen any bodysucceed at that?
Haley: No, I haven’t. Husbandsand wives struggle to do that with each otherquite oftenand that’s what makes the struggle.
Pines: I wonder how you’ll everwrite that self-help book, considering theway you answerthese questions.
Haley: It would have to be carefullyfigured out. We were thinking ofcalling the book DrivingEach Other Sane. I think you could say, if you were in adolescent, whatyoucould do; or if you were awife, or a husband, or a grandparent. And from certain positions,if you planned a careful strategy, you could produce somechanges in you family. But it wouldrequireinstructions. The book would guide people to it. Because they aren’t able todo it on their own. The average person who is kind ofunhappy with the way his family is andtries to change itis in difficulty if he goes in and says, "I don’t wantit like this anymore."That tends to arouse thevery activity he’s trying to stop. He needs to triangulate according tosomebody else’s system. (Why not try God’s Way, Agape!Amen! Jt.)
Pines: Family therapists seemto talk a lot about triangles. Who started it?
Haley: Oedipus.
Pines: Okay. I mean, when didtherapists begin to think in terms oftriangles?
Haley: Well, you see, the periodof the ‘50s was really the end of theindividual in therapy.That’s when psychoanalysis died as a force in the world. In the ‘60s,therapists developed a
dyadic view—both in behavior modification, with one personreinforcinganother, and in communicationtherapy, where everybody was translating symptoms intocommunications
between husbands and wives, or between mothers and children.Then, in the‘70s, therapists really got into triangles and organizational structures. It was quite astep, to begin thinking in three. You could think in termsof coalitions."Feminism has moved womento more equality with their husbands. But it’sawkward tohave two equals in charge of a group—like having two Presidents."
Pines: Can you give me an example?
Haley:Yes.Supposeweseeamotheraskingachildwhatsheshoulddotopunishhim.Inthe‘50swe’dhavet
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