What is postmodernism and what does it have to do with therapy, anyway?
An interview with Lois Shawver
Maybe, like thousands of other therapists, you have heard of and even read whatare considered core postmodern therapy texts. And maybe you still struggle toput into a neat sentence your understanding of what it's all about. But, beingtongue-tied on the matter could be more a function of the difficultypostmodernists themselves have in clearly defining what they're about than yourignorance. In this exclusive interview, Lois Shawver, the owner of the highlyactive Postmodern Therapies Homepage (www.california.com/~rathbone/pmth.htm),makes sense of what postmodernism is about and what it means for therapy.
What is postmodernism?
Postmodernism is the new philosophy for the skeptical. Postmoderns are thosepeople who have begun to doubt the authors who seemed to have all the answers,the authors who seem to have everything wrapped up with a complete story of howthings are and how they should be. There are many people who are postmoderntoday but don't know it. The postmodern therapist is the one who looks at allthe schools of psychotherapy, from psychoanalysis to behavior theory to familytherapy and says, "They talk like they have everything figured out but I don'tbelieve it. They are just too confident. I can think of too many exceptions. Idon't have everything figured out either, of course, but I trust my ability toread the issues sensitively and notice the exceptions more than I trust somefamous innovator to tell me how things are and how I should do therapy."
Is postmodernism just another word for skepticism then?
Yes, except that it is also various philosophies that ponder our situation aspostmodern skeptics.
Why are there a variety of postmodern philosophies rather than one?
It is much the same with any skepticism or agnosticism. Consider religiousagnostics, for example. Religious agnostics might say they are skeptical aboutall religious beliefs, but still those who were raised in Christian homes mightcontinue to celebrate Christmas while those raised in Jewish homes continue tohave bar mitzvahs.
The agnosticism of postmodernism is much like that. Although there may be arather general skepticism, the stamp of earlier beliefs such as psychoanalysis,research psychology, or family therapy, continue to show their trace.
Who do you contrast with the postmoderns? Who is there, in other words, who isnot postmodern?
I think of there being three groups of people: the premoderns, the moderns, andthe postmoderns. The premoderns are the people who explain things with literalparables such as people who take the Bible literally. The moderns, in contrast,try to put all their beliefs in scientific sounding theories. The postmodernsare more likely to take a non-literal but poetic approach to expressingthemselves.
Do the postmoderns have a common set of beliefs?
Not really. They have different beliefs but they share a kind of humility abouttheir beliefs. They treat their beliefs more like hunches than like faithfulallegiances. They often describe themselves as "not-knowing" or "non-knowing".They take a professional stance without presenting themselves as experts. Theyoffer help without presenting themselves as authorities. Although there are noreal common beliefs, however, there is a common style of talking that frequentlyemerges from this shared skepticism.
Isn't it a loss not to have firm and committed beliefs?
Some people think so. I call these people "nostalgic postmoderns." I contrastthem with the more "utopian" postmoderns. Utopian postmoderns have discoveredsomething to replace their committed beliefs.
What replaces committed beliefs?
A special kind of conversation that I call "paralogy" after Jean-FrancoisLyotard, one of the leaders of the postmodern movement. In paralogicalconversations, people of quite diverse points of view, even modern or premodernpoints of view, find ways to talk together and make sense together. Instead oftalking past each other or down to each other, they learn from each other, orthat's what they try to do.
Paralogy is a very satisfying, very alluring kind of conversation that sometimeshappens when people of diverse views come together and listen to each other.Because they no longer feel so firmly committed to a package of ideas (a theoryor a parable), they can sometimes listen to each other with more generosity, andlearn more from each other. It is not that people begin to think the same somuch as that conceptual shifts begin to happen. This can be very exciting. Eachconversationalist becomes more creative, more visionary. Once the conversationbecomes more creative, many people do not miss the paternalism of modern andpremodern forms of life.
Where would I find postmodernism manifesting itself?
Everywhere in the western world where conversation is encouraged.
Modernity was the culture of the book, but the book divides people into authorsand readers. The authors and readers never meet each other. There is noconversation. Authors simply provide the ideas and readers simply drink them in.
But in the postmodern culture, people are turning away from books and preferconversational paralogy. They are tired of monologues. They want to talk witheach other, or listen to others talk. If they read texts, they will prefer whatLynn Hoffman (see page 28 for interview) calls "paralogues," a new form ofwriting in which authors read each other and respond specifically to eachother's ideas. Rather than have an edited book with different and unrelatedopinions in the different chapters, one might have a central section of thebook, for example, with others responding to that section.
But you will see postmodernism manifesting itself wherever it is possible forpeople to talk. It will show up more in seminars, for example, than in lectureclasses. It will show up more on the internet than in the library. It will showup where diversity of opinion is valued and allowed and show up less whereallegiance to authority is required and enforced.
How will this postmodernism affect therapy theory and therapist education?
In modernity, therapy theory tended to consist of grand systems of thoughtauthored by individual innovators. In postmodernity, theories authored byindividual innovators are no longer very satisfying. The postmodern therapistknows that authors had to simplify their own thinking in order to package it asa book. More important than the book will be the conversation, the paralogicalconversation. Students will want to hear authors in conversation more than justread what they have written. And the students will be eager to join thoseconversations. We will have to find creative ways for students to join inconversation with us.
In other words, graduate school will no longer be the culture of the book. Itwill be the culture of conversational paralogy. Books will still be used, butthose that present themselves as final and complete
Can you give an example of the ways that postmodern therapists might find torelate to clients?
They might introduce clients to the experience of a paralogical dialogue, one inwhich the client's own knowledge is given more weight than it has been given inthe past. They might also interview clients to help them find their ownpreferred pathways. Or they might make multiple suggestions so that no singlesuggestion carries the weight of authority. They might also introduce newpostmodern vocabularies or idioms. I offer one myself, but these idioms arepresented in a provisional way.
There is a surprisingly large number of ways to relate to people usefullywithout taking the position that you know the truth about them and know how theyshould lead their lives.
Who are the leading postmodern authors you read, especially in disciplinesrelated to therapy?
First, I must tell you the philosophers I read because what draws postmodernstogether today is the postmodern philosophers they read. Wittgenstein isprobably the most prominent philosopher read by postmodern therapists. JacquesDerrida, Jean-Francois Lyotard, Richard Rorty, are also inspiring to postmodernthinkers.
Postmoderns also read about social constructionism. Social constructionism is avisionary approach to postmodernism. These are utopian postmoderns, notnostalgic ones. Social constructionists remind us that we humans create theinstitutions that define our lives and that we often do so unwittingly, just byaccepting the scripts we're handed. Noticing this makes it possible to consideralternative ways of defining our lives.
I am particularly inspired here by the social constructionist writings of SheilaMcNamee, John Shotter, and, of course, Mary and Kenneth Gergen. They have somany books, and they often publish in combination. Let me suggest, however, thenow classic text, Therapy as Social Construction by McNamee and Gergen.
I am taken by Douglas Ingram's work, too. He is a psychoanalyst who has brokenwith the psychoanalytic tradition of interpreting every client with the sameOedipal storyline. Instead, he finds ways to give each therapy relationship a"signature" that constructs the relationship as unique and special. I cite hiswork a lot in my writing and am presently preparing a paper to show what I findinspirational about Douglas Ingram's thinking.
Also, high on the list of postmodern therapists whom I admire is Lynn Hoffman(see page 28). Hoffman is breaking new ground with a philosophy of "speakingwith a different voice." She takes her concept of a "different voice" from herreading of Carol Gilligan. The different voice is a voice that has learned toavoid sinking into the acrimonious position disputes that have characterizedmodernity. Her most postmodern work to date is a collection of essays calledExchanging Voices.
Harlene Anderson's (see New Therapist 5) work is also postmodern. She introducesa "not-knowing" style and actively invites clients to collaborate with her inexploring what she calls the "not yet said." I especially like her work becauseit can be imported into other ways of doing therapy. Surely every postmodern canprofit from reading her book, Conversation, Language and Possibilities.
Another postmodern therapist is Tom Andersen (see New Therapist 2 and 5). His"reflecting team" is a format that replaces the hierarchical, expert status ofthe modern therapist with the collaborative, side-by-side status of thepostmodern one. In this, he seems to extend Lyotard's concept of paralogy intotherapeutic practice.
Then there is a large group of activist postmoderns who work with Fred Newmanand Lois Holzman (see New Therapist 5). They challenge the model of therapy asan institutionalized profession. Their clients are often in training to becomewhat they call "social therapists," and their therapy does not all take place inan office. Newman, for example, uses self-written and professionally performedmorality plays to inspire new perspectives. This team also works a lot withinner city youths by holding talent shows that allow teenagers to develop andenjoy their abilities. The Holzman/Newman team are very busy with their ownversion of a "non-knowing" approach, and their impact has been remarkable (seeNew Therapist 5).
There are others, too. I have recently heard Rob Doan speak. Doan is theco-author with Alan Parry of Story-Revisions. Hearing him speak I am convincedof his postmodernism. There is an open style to his talk, a way of invitingothers to join with him. And I would like to include Klaus Deissler's work onsocial poetizing, which shows how we label things with metaphors that help shapeour worlds. I think Tom Strong's deconstruction of our diagnostic categoriesshould be included, as well as his other writing (see page 36 of this edition).
And I want to mention, too, a budding new group of Derrideans, Glenn Larner,David Pare, Alexa Hepburn. My list could go on and on, but perhaps these will beenough for now.
How do you see postmodernism related to poststructuralism?
Poststructuralism is one of the routes to postmodern skepticism. There areothers.
Structuralism was the school of thought that said that there was a hiddenunderlying structure to the human mind. Different structuralists posed their owntheory as to what exactly this hidden structure was. Poststructuralists, nolonger believe there is such a well-defined, stable mental structure and somepoststructuralists become postmodern as a way of dealing with this skepticism.That is, they turn to conversational paralogy and try to avoid forcing theparalogy to particular conclusion. Hershey Bell taught me the term "agendaless"to refer to this way of interacting.
Michael White, however, stayed with poststructuralism without moving into thispostmodern paralogical approach. As you know, White helped create an importantversion of narrative therapy. He was heavily influenced by the ideas of thepoststructuralist, Michel Foucault. For White, the term "poststructural" callsattention to the specific problems that underlie therapeutic modernism in a waythat the term "postmodern" does not. His school of thought offers creative waysof dealing with problems once understood to be structural, but he does not callhimself "postmodern," even though he would agree with many postmodern positionsat least this is how I understand Michael White's reasons for consideringhimself poststructuralist rather than postmodern.
As opposed to structuralism, positivism was the school of thought that believedthat words always labeled objects and that good positivist philosophy couldteach us how to get the labels exactly right. This is the philosophy of mostresearch in the social sciences, research that defines its variables andstatistically analyzes its data. This was what I once believed in, and so thiswas my own route to postmodernism. It was also Wittgenstein's route. Thispostmodernism is postpositivist.
Remember, however, all of this simplifies the postmodern picture. Mostpostmoderns study both poststructuralist and postpositivist writing.
How do you see postmodernism related to poststructuralism?
Poststructuralism is one of the routes to postmodern skepticism. There areothers.
Structuralism was the school of thought that said that there was a hiddenunderlying structure to the human mind. Different structuralists posed their owntheory as to what exactly this hidden structure was. Poststructuralists, nolonger believe there is such a well-defined, stable mental structure and somepoststructuralists become postmodern as a way of dealing with this skepticism.That is, they turn to conversational paralogy and try to avoid forcing theparalogy to particular conclusion. Hershey Bell taught me the term "agendaless"to refer to this way of interacting.
Michael White, however, stayed with poststructuralism without moving into thispostmodern paralogical approach. As you know, White helped create an importantversion of narrative therapy. He was heavily influenced by the ideas of thepoststructuralist, Michel Foucault. For White, the term "poststructural" callsattention to the specific problems that underlie therapeutic modernism in a waythat the term "postmodern" does not. His school of thought offers creative waysof dealing with problems once understood to be structural, but he does not callhimself "postmodern," even though he would agree with many postmodern positionsat least this is how I understand Michael White's reasons for consideringhimself poststructuralist rather than postmodern.
As opposed to structuralism, positivism was the school of thought that believedthat words always labeled objects and that good positivist philosophy couldteach us how to get the labels exactly right. This is the philosophy of mostresearch in the social sciences, research that defines its variables andstatistically analyzes its data. This was what I once believed in, and so thiswas my own route to postmodernism. It was also Wittgenstein's route. Thispostmodernism is postpositivist.
Remember, however, all of this simplifies the postmodern picture. Mostpostmoderns study both poststructuralist and postpositivist writing.
Is postmodernism just a fad?
In a way yes, and in a way no. I believe the postmodernism of today is likely tobe a passing thing. Today, postmodernism is defined by its skepticism, but Ithink postmodernism will come to be seen as the kind of creative spirit thatfosters collaboration and new ways of talking and writing between people who donot necessarily share an allegiance to the same school of thought.
Is postmodernism likely to affect our future as therapists? If so, how?
As therapists, postmodernism will make us work more collaboratively. We willstudy our clients' situation with them in ways that we hope will foster theircreativity. We will be more inventive about approaches and less condemning ofapproaches different from our own.
I also believe that postmodernism will lead, eventually, to more onlinetherapies (see New Therapist 7, due out in May 2000, for an exhausitive look atonline therapy). Some will be self-help groups (sometimes including therapists)and some will be new types of advice services. I have recently imagined that wewould have families describing their problems online while reflecting teamsobserved and commented over the internet. Regardless, the design of theseconversations will be different from what we have known before. They willexploit the new online medium to foster better relationships among speakers,respect for difference. They will often tend to betray the theorist's intentionsin order to make the therapy fit the local situation better. These postmoderntherapists will be more respectful of clients than therapists have generallybeen.
That's how I see things going. However, like any postmodern, I realize that thispeering around the corner is largely imaginative. There are so many unknownforces. Still, it is hard to imagine that whatever comes after postmodernismwill be unaffected by the changes it has brought us.
Lois Shawver grew up in Texas, the daughter of parents who had not graduatedfrom high school. Her father, unable to read, did not appreciate Lois' earlyscholarly interests. At nineteen she was engaged and was a mother of two in herearly twenties. One day, Lois' loving grandmother offered to move in with herand babysit for a year so Lois could go to college. Six years later, Lois had aPh.D. in clinical psychology. She has been in private practice for 25 years andworked as a prison psychologist part-time for 15 years. She has publishednumerous articles and one book. Today, she lives with her husband Douglas Kurdysand their two dogs in northern California where she continues with a privatepractice, runs a popular internet listserv on postmodern therapies and publisheson postmodernism as it relates to therapy. Visit her at www.california.com/~rathbone/pmth.htm
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